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Sam
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 Beitrags-Nr.: 64510 | Verfasst am: 08.07.2005 - 21:27 Titel: Kämpfe i.Elsaß u. i. Lothringen bis z.Niederrhein 1944 |
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Folgenden Text fand ich im I-net:
9th US Army enters Immendorf, Germany circa November 16th - 23th, 1944. During this push the Germans lost 70 tanks (including 4 remote controlled robot tanks)
Hatt jemand mehr Informationen zu den Gefechten bei Immendorf ?
Threadtitel überarbeitet. Jan-Hendrik/Moderator |
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*ALEX*
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64535 | Verfasst am: 09.07.2005 - 08:29 Titel: |
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70 Panzer? Dürfte wohl extrem übertrieben sein, da diese Menge etwa 2-3 Panzerdivisionen bedeuten würde (Ist- und ncht Sollstärke)
mfg
alex |
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Sam
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64592 | Verfasst am: 09.07.2005 - 19:49 Titel: |
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| *ALEX* hat Folgendes geschrieben: | 70 Panzer? Dürfte wohl extrem übertrieben sein, da diese Menge etwa 2-3 Panzerdivisionen bedeuten würde (Ist- und ncht Sollstärke)
mfg
alex |
GEREONSWEILER, Germany, Dec. 8 — The huge German tank you can see alongside the road about a kilometer from this little village is one of 67 wrecked Tigers and Tiger Royals, twisted and scarred, scattered along the roadways and in the muddy open fields in this area. This Nazi armor represents the pattern of defeat which came when the desperate Krauts, going all-out to stem the 9th Army advance into Germany, elected to pit Essen steel against Pittsburgh steel, German guts against American guts.
The remainder of the record 100 Nazi tanks which tangled with our army in a four-day pitched battle in knee-deep mud and a cold, steady rain, managed to escape and fall back along the Roer River. They were soundly beaten in their largest tank fight since D-Day.
This bitter defeat dealt the Krauts by crack tank, tank destroyer and artillery units of the will-o'-the-wisp 9th, was no hit-or-miss proposition. The unit commanders of the 9th planned this victory as thoroughly and matter-of-factly as they had planned similar operations in maneuvers and training back in the States.
Two days before the battle, headquarters spent long hours studying reconnaissance reports gathered by armored cavalry, infantry and air-force men who had carefully plotted Jerry's positions.
A large table 16 feet square was built and filled with sand. On this a scale model of the entire area, topographically perfect, was constructed. The sand-table model showed where the seldom-seen German armor was hiding. It gave the tankers a preview of the sort of terrain they would be fighting over. For two nights every tanker down to the rank of sergeant fought the sand-table battle, maneuvering their armor against the German tanks like Gullivers in Lilliput.
On the first bleak morning of the four-day battle heavy Shermans rumbled and roared along the muddy country roads toward Puffendorf and Immendorf, two small German villages south of Gereonsweiler. With them went the hard-hitting crews manning the 76s, whose job is to knock out enemy panzers.
Tiger Royals Kayoed
They hadn't gone far along the road before they were momentarily halted by fire from German 88s, mounted on small tanks and dug into the soupy fields and roadsides. Systematically they were eliminated by our armor and artillery.
Then the show really got under way. The Krauts, tossing caution to the winds, counter-attacked near the small hamlet of Setterich. The Germans were playing their parts according to the script mapped on the sand-table in headquarters. When a score of assorted German Mark IV, V and VIs, along with several of the new Tiger Royals, came onto the scene, the reception was very warm.
Two of the Tiger Royals, which boast a 22-foot barrel on the 88 mounted on the front of the tank, were knocked silly. Other lesser German tanks burned out as British "Crocodiles," supplementing our armored attack, slogged ahead with their flame throwers spitting fire in front of them. Panzer grenadiers, thrown in against our attack, fought from their foxholes with small arms but threw in the sponge when they realized their predicament.
Maj. R. E. De Horn, Antigo, Wis., a staff officer of the crack armored Combat Command B, which took part in the clash, described it this way:
"It had been raining for three days without let up and the ground was very soggy, making maneuvering with armor almost impossible. We couldn't get full support of the air force either — the weather was too murky."
The major grinned and said, "Well, it wasn't exactly what you would call an ideal time for this sort of an operation. We put paddlefeet on the tank tracks and that made it a little easier to move around without getting bogged down in the soup."
The major said that the Germans had thrown in three panzer battalions and elements of another. They were supported by panzer grenadiers, who took it on the chin coming and going from our armor, our artillery, and at times, when the battle was at its peak, their own tanks.
"You never saw a sadder bunch than those panzer grenadiers we took prisoner," another officer said. "There they were stuck out there to stop our attack with only rifles, a few grenades and machine pistols. They were overrun. And the Jerries who were quartered in Setterich, Puffendorf, and Immendorf were so sure their armor would throw us out again that they just went to Gereonsweiler and settled down to sweat it out until the towns were in the their hands again. They were awfully surprised when we walked in and took them prisoner."
"Yes," the major added. "Those Krauts were all set to spend the winter there — they didn't think we'd get very far. They'll learn.
"This was the first time since D-Day," the major said, "that we have had the time to really plan anything like this action. We could see this fight looming for several days and so we got busy and really went into detail on the thing."
Record Tank Concentration
Termed by one colonel "the largest commitment of enemy tanks since D-Day," this battle marked another few miles along the road to Berlin and victory, because it was an excellent example of co-ordination of several arms — air, artillery, infantry and tanks, all focusing their terrific fire power on a single objective.
Pointing out the scene of action on a small-scale map on the wall, Major Dc Horn said, "You have to remember that in an operation of this sort it isn't a case of the Germans running up 100 tanks all in a bunch and banging up against an equal or greater number of our ranks.
It's a case of 16 German tanks south of this town, another engagement north of Setterich in which our TDs and tanks clash with a dozen or two other tanks.
"During the four days they lost plenty of armor — about two thirds of all they used. Part of it was knocked out by our tanks and TDs. When we were advancing the artillery laid down some of the most beautiful rolling barrages I have ever seen. Other German tracks and tanks were knocked out that way. The P47s were up there whenever the weather allowed and they poured it on the Kraut armor and grenadiers. And you can't say too much for the job our infantry did. Although this was mainly a problem of armor against armor, the infantry bays were in there pitching too with bazookas and harassing fire which helped account for a few more of their tanks."
Our Tanks Faster
"Don't sell their armor short," the major warned. "They have damned good tanks when they want to bring them out to fight. They are well armed with their 88s and machine-guns and the frontal armor is plenty thick — they can take a hell of a beating. But we can give a hell of a beating.
"Our tanks are faster and much more maneuverable — that really counted in this case where maneuvering was more difficult because of the soggy terrain. And our firepower outclassed theirs all the way."
Later that afternoon outside the CP you could see the heavy tanks rolling along, throwing bits of mud from their tracks as they moved through the slop and deeper into Germany. They were moving to new positions for new attacks made possible by the thumping given the German armor near Gereonsweiler.
Generals and colonels hesitate to commit themselves as to the shape of things to come. The only word from the commanders of the armored division, said in terse, straight-to-the-point language, is "The German armor has withdrawn to an area along the Roer River."
If you stopped just before coming to the crossroads where the huge Shermans had pulled over onto the shoulder and the men were sitting atop the tanks and eating C-rations, you could get some pretty interesting views from the mud-covered tankers who fought the battle. They made predictions, too.
One sergeant when asked how the fight had gone, said, "Hell — we knocked them King-Size Tigers over just as easy as any other kind of Tiger. That long barrel on that 88 don't make that tank any harder to hit."
Reverse Desert Fighting
"We whacked him this time and we're going to give him a return engagement any time he wants it." a Pfc from New York City said. "Our biggest headache has always been finding them Krauts — once we find 'em we know how to handle 'em."
The rain continued to fall. Little rivulets ran along the roads and a small stream rushed along the ditches. In the fields you could see large ponds — growing larger. And the skies were still black and the forecast wasn't for improved weather.
"This is the pay-off," one tanker yelled. "We train for months for desert tank fighting and what do we get? A damned place where the weather is like the last reel in 'Hurricane.' "
"Happy bird bath!" another tanker yelled.
And as you get into the jeep to leave, being careful not to slide off the shoulder as you turn at the crossroads, you can hear the tankers yelling to each other as they eat their chow in the rain.
"Plowing through the muck and mire — ," one man yelled.
A chorus answered, "H'ya Muck!"
The tanker shouted, "H'ya Meyer!"
You can't stop a rough and tumble, screwball bunch like those boys — not when they're looking for Jerry, not when they have their battles planned to the nth degree. And not when they realize that they're on the road to Berlin. It may be a muddy, rainy, shell-pocked road, but they can read the signs and they're plenty anxious to get there.
Quelle: http://www.stripes.com/ww2/stories/tanks.html |
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*ALEX*
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64598 | Verfasst am: 09.07.2005 - 21:01 Titel: |
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Ach ja, Stars and Stripes Klar. Und Der Verknopper ist ein Historiker in Landserhäftchen wird tiefgestapelt, und Dtl hat den Krieg gewonnen.... 
Sehn wir mal:
Die 9.US-Armee kampfte im Raum von Aachen gegendie 5.PzArmee und teilweise des 7.AOK. Am 26.11 standen diesen beiden Armeen 10.SS PzD, 15.PzGrD, 9.PzD, 3.PzGrD (5.PzAOK) sowie 2.PZD (in Auffrischung), 116.PzD (7.AOK).
Ich glaube nicht, dass diese Divisionen INSGESAMT über 100 Panzer verfügt haben, geschweige denn 100 TIGER und KöTi!
Ich lass mich aber eines besseren belehren.
mfg
alex |
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M_M77
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64609 | Verfasst am: 09.07.2005 - 21:38 Titel: |
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Die werden wohl nichtmals einen Tiger oder Königstiger gehabt haben , denn die standen alle bereit oder waren in Zulauf in den Ardennen !!!  |
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Sam
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64694 | Verfasst am: 10.07.2005 - 15:41 Titel: |
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Mir ist schon klar das Stars and Stripes Propaganda ähnlich der deutschen Wochenschau ist...
Ich wollte auch nur wissen wer mir die Wahrheit über die Gefechte bei Immendorf sagen kann, im Internet findet sich nichts. |
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*ALEX*
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64701 | Verfasst am: 10.07.2005 - 16:26 Titel: |
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Hat einer eine Zusammenstellung der Ist-Stärken der Divisionen oben für Anfang Dezember? Also 9.PzD, 10.SS PzD, 3. und 15. PzGrD?
So können wir leicht klären, ob überhaupt so viele Panzer bei 5.PzAOK vorhanden und einsatzbereit waren, wie die Amerikaner angeblich dort abgeschossen haben.
Wobei mir der Satz "3 PzAbteilungen, und Teile anderer" auffällt.
Das würde bedeuten, dass mehr, als eine komplette PzDiv dort eingesetzt war, und in 1-2 Tagen komplett aufgerieben wurde.
Ich ziehe mal die Iststärken der an Konrad 3 beteiligten Divisionen zum Vergleich heran:
20.01.1945:
1.PzD: 54, 3.PzD: 34, 3.SS PzD: 27, 5.SS PzD: 12, 23.PzD: 19,
02.02.1945:
1.PzD: 2, 3.PzD: 15, 3.SS PzD:15, 5.SS PzD: 4, 23. PzD: 15
Die beiden SS Div. kamen fast aufgefüllt Anfang Januar nach Ungarn, die Heeresdivisionen kämpften schon seit Herbst hier.
mfg
alex |
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Jan-Hendrik
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64702 | Verfasst am: 10.07.2005 - 16:37 Titel: |
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Schade , das axishistory grade nicht funktioniert , da hatte Ron Klages ne Aufstellung über die monatliches Ist-Bestände an Vollkettenfahrzeugen nach Fahrzeugtyp und Einheit pro Monat 1944 an der Westfront zusammen gestellt ...
Jan-Hendrik |
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Markus
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64721 | Verfasst am: 10.07.2005 - 18:24 Titel: |
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| Sam hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
The remainder of the record 100 Nazi tanks which tangled with our army in a four-day pitched battle in knee-deep mud and a cold, steady rain, managed to escape and fall back along the Roer River.
Our Tanks Faster
"Our tanks are faster and much more maneuverable — that really counted in this case where maneuvering was more difficult because of the soggy terrain. And our firepower outclassed theirs all the way." |
Na, fällt euch da nicht was auf?
Gruß Markus |
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M_M77
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64750 | Verfasst am: 10.07.2005 - 22:54 Titel: |
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| *ALEX* hat Folgendes geschrieben: | Hat einer eine Zusammenstellung der Ist-Stärken der Divisionen oben für Anfang Dezember? Also 9.PzD, 10.SS PzD, 3. und 15. PzGrD?
So können wir leicht klären, ob überhaupt so viele Panzer bei 5.PzAOK vorhanden und einsatzbereit waren, wie die Amerikaner angeblich dort abgeschossen haben.
Wobei mir der Satz "3 PzAbteilungen, und Teile anderer" auffällt.
Das würde bedeuten, dass mehr, als eine komplette PzDiv dort eingesetzt war, und in 1-2 Tagen komplett aufgerieben wurde.
Ich ziehe mal die Iststärken der an Konrad 3 beteiligten Divisionen zum Vergleich heran:
20.01.1945:
1.PzD: 54, 3.PzD: 34, 3.SS PzD: 27, 5.SS PzD: 12, 23.PzD: 19,
02.02.1945:
1.PzD: 2, 3.PzD: 15, 3.SS PzD:15, 5.SS PzD: 4, 23. PzD: 15
Die beiden SS Div. kamen fast aufgefüllt Anfang Januar nach Ungarn, die Heeresdivisionen kämpften schon seit Herbst hier.
mfg
alex |
Hallo !
Habe in Hermann Jungs "Die Ardennenoffensive 1944/45" folgende Ist-Stärken gefunden für Anfang Dezember 1944 :
9.Panzerdivision :
Panther : 47 , Panzer IV : 28 , Sturmgeschütze : 11
3.Panzergrenadierdivision :
Sturmgeschütze : 69
15.Panzergrenadierdivision :
Panzer IV und Sturmgeschütze : 15
10. SS Frundsberg :
Panther : 10 , Sturmgeschütze : 11
Bei der SS Division werden 68 Panzer Als "im Zulauf" gemeldet , also unterwegs !! |
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Sam
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64765 | Verfasst am: 11.07.2005 - 02:55 Titel: |
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| Markus hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Sam hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
The remainder of the record 100 Nazi tanks which tangled with our army in a four-day pitched battle in knee-deep mud and a cold, steady rain, managed to escape and fall back along the Roer River.
Our Tanks Faster
"Our tanks are faster and much more maneuverable — that really counted in this case where maneuvering was more difficult because of the soggy terrain. And our firepower outclassed theirs all the way." |
Na, fällt euch da nicht was auf?
Gruß Markus |
Was denn...  |
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Jan-Hendrik
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64776 | Verfasst am: 11.07.2005 - 09:15 Titel: |
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Das der Herr dort absoluten Stuß erzählt ? 
Hier der Link zu Ron Klages Aufstellung aller Vollkettenfahrzeuge an der Westfront :
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79287
Jan-Hendrik |
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Markus
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64784 | Verfasst am: 11.07.2005 - 11:38 Titel: |
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| Sam hat Folgendes geschrieben: | | Markus hat Folgendes geschrieben: |
Na, fällt euch da nicht was auf?
Gruß Markus |
Was denn... |
Der Autor behauptet, ein Sherman sei beweglicher als ein Tiger ... und zwar besonders im knietiefen Schlamm bei strömendem Regen. Bei solchen Witterungsbedingungen waren die schweren dt. Panzer wegen ihrer breiteren Ketten eindeutig im Vorteil.
Und das hier ist auch sehr vielsagend:
This story originally appeared in Stars and Stripes on December 9, 1944.
Meine Vorbehalte bezüglich der Glaubwürdigkeit zeitgenössischer Veröffentlichungen in Propagandablättern werden durch diesen Artikel voll bestätigt.
Gruß Markus |
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Sam
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64800 | Verfasst am: 11.07.2005 - 14:13 Titel: |
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Nun, auch wenn nur 30 oder 20 deutsche Panzer von den amerikanischen Einheiten vernichtet wurden, darum geht es mir eigendlich garnicht. Mir ist klar das dieser Stars and Stripes Artikel nicht glaubwürdig ist.
| Zitat: | By 20 November Apweiler and Gereonsweiler had been seized by the 406th Infantry after 2d Armored Division's heavy slugging in the beet and grain fields around Immendorf. Colonel Hurless had expected to meet resistance in this area bat his doughboys were hardly prepared for the furious curtain of fire which greeted them from pillboxes, machine guns, tanks and German 88's. Snipers lurked in every cellar, atop church steeples and on roofs. Bitter house-to-house fighting raged for hours. Topflight Panzer Grenadier and SS troops taking full advantage of community diggings, demolished buildings, anything that offered shelter, gave ground foot by foot. By evening of 21 November, however, the high ground over-looking Merz Brook was in American hands. Only a single ridge remained before the Roer.
Major General E, N, Harmon, then commanding 2d Armored Division, praised Ozark troops in a letter to General Keating:
"I wish to commend the 406th Infantry Regiment, commanded by Colonel Hurless, for the highly efficient manner in which it per-formed its duties and accomplished its missions while attached to the 2d Armored Division.”
“The attack and capture of Immendorf by the 2d Battalion, 406th Infantry Regiment, support-ed by Company H, 67th Armored Regiment in justifyspacer
the face of heavy enemy fire and large numbers of enemy anti-tank and anti-personnel mines, was accomplished promptly with a dashing and vigorous fighting spirit."
"The attack and capture of Apweiler and Gereonsweiler by the 406th Infantry Regiment in conjunction with the 67th Armored Regiment and 1st and 3rd Battalions of the 41st Armored Infantry Regiment, was executed in spite of strong enemy resistance and difficult weather conditions."
"The subsequent capture of the regimental objective north of Gereonsweiler, supported by the 3rd Battalion, 67th Armored Regiment, was a splendid example of timing and coordination of all arms. The holding of this critical terrain feature in the face of determined enemy counterattack with tanks and infantry, demonstrated the fighting spirit of our infantry even after several days of hard fighting and in spite of heavy casualties."
"The fighting quality displayed by the 406th Infantry Regiment is in the best traditions of the service and has won the respect and commendation of the 2d Armored Division."
For troops whose previous offensive expe-rience had been limited to mock battles in the Louisiana swamps, who only a few short weeks before had enjoyed beer in New York, it was a proud accomplishment. Over a thousand pri-soners had been taken. Two hundred and four German graves had been filled with their dead. The push to the Roer was well under way.
On 24 November the Division CP moved from Robroek, Holland to Ubach, Germany, where it remained in a schoolhouse cellar during the winter. A new realignment of sectors placed the troops on a defensive line from just south of Lindern to Ederen. This was to be the line of departure for the Roer battle, scheduled to jump off 29 November. |
Quelle: http://www.lonesentry.com/102thrugermany/pg19.html
| Zitat: | | Immendorf and the entire heavily built-up factory area southwest of Braunschweig. More than 60 88mm guns were destroyed as were Railroad guns and artillery of all calibers. Elements of CCA were forced to remain in the area after the enemy's evacuation on 11 April to prevent rioting, looting and traffic obstacles by the thousands of former forced laborers and freed Allied prisoners.5 |
Quelle: http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/documents/elbe-ch1.htm |
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Kra-Wumm!
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| Beitrags-Nr.: 64853 | Verfasst am: 11.07.2005 - 18:31 Titel: Re: Schwere deutsche Verluste bei Immendorf |
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Ich meine ein Foto eines erbeuteten Stug III aus Immendorf zu kennen, mit US Soldaten und anscheinend in Oliv-Grün. Finde aber das Buch gerade nicht ("Last of the Panzers" von W.Auerbach).
Immerhin hat die sPzAbt.506 im Zeitraum 16-28.11 zehn Tiger in dieser Gegend verloren. Am bekanntesten sind dabei wohl die Fotos vom zerstörten Tiger II bei Freialdenhoven und der später von den Amerikanern reparierte Königstiger "2-11" aus Gereonsweiler. |
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